Giving it up!

[David M. Edwards]

Is it me, or is there a rash of adds out there asking film pofessionals to work for next to nothing, deffered or free. These people must know that this is the equivalent of asking, "Hey you, mister/mam, could you pay my utility bill. Or, my kids in school, could you spare a semesters tuition. It would really help out, and I'd appreciate it and give you a credit in his/her graduating speech."

[Rhoda Cronebach]

Yep...happens all the time where I live. In fact, it's practically a given expectation. Getting compensated for services rendered is rare, usually because budgets are non-existant. Of course, it's a product of the market I'm in....the state of Ohio. Everyone has a movie to make, but no one can pay to make it. "But hey, you'll get copy & credit !" Yeah, great. I'll add to the stack of other indie films in my cabinet. "Oh, but we're entering it into several major festivals !" Ok sure....if you don't have money to pay for production, what makes ya think you'll have the cash to convert your HD/DV movie to 35mm film (providing you actually get accepted into Sundance or Tribecca)???

True, the festival circut will give the film exposure, as well as everyone who helped make the film. You never know who you will network with at those things, so the possibilities of it leading to bigger things is there, however remote. Plus, adding to the resume is always a good thing.

At the end of the day, why do we allow our skills to be utilized for next to nothing? We do it because we love making movies. Bringing a great story to life is our passion...we couldn't give it up if we tried. It's in our blood, our soul. So, when we see an awesome script, or someone recommends us to be a part of someone's cast/crew, it's hard to say no. We've been bitten by the bug, and there's no cure.

Of course one day, I'll have to insist on getting paid. I don't want work in an insurance office forever.

Humble slave to the craft,
~ Rhoda :)
Actress, Makeup Artist, Writer

[Luke Stewart]

You don't have to print to 35mm film to show at Sundance, they accept digital formats. Not sure about Tribeca though.

[David M. Edwards]

While I'm not sure this applies to the original posting, it somehow makes sense and adds a perspective I might not have been fully looking at, or apreciating.. Thanks.

Luke Stewart said:

You don't have to print to 35mm film to show at Sundance, they accept digital formats. Not sure about Tribeca though.

[Ann Allen]

It's the same in the music industry. There are sites out there now that charge a band a few hundred bucks, to be a feature artist on their site, with the band's music, then 'pay' the costs of burning music to CD's to listeners who want to purchase a hardcopy and hosting the song downloads.

I know a band from here who did it, despite me explaining the con behind it and then they made me 'eat my words' when their song sat a spot or two higher than an internationally known metal act. I didn't bother telling them it's not the freakin' Billboard charts, but logic escaped them in this example.

But yea, I think this is a sign of the times, re: pirating. Australia's film industry was kicking ass in the 1990s, going to the Oscars regularly etc, but since pirating, it's almost impossible to get funding for a film out here, so I think these goons are just trying to cash in on the billions of dollars that the film industry is losing every year, because let's face it; the law of averages, will ensure they find a brilliant script, in amongst the crap and it will be the golden egg, if they can get it for free.

Assholes... lol
~ A

[Hank Isaac]

This may ramble a bit, so please forgive me.

I think it's all about passion vs. pennies. Of all the films in development you've heard about, for which of them would you be willing to mortgage your house or sell your children into slavery? My guess is... none.

[a digression] - I've run into a number of individuals over the years who want to be filmmakers, not make films.

Maybe it's like trying to get a cat to sit in your lap. You can chase it around - and they're very good at staying just out of fingertip's reach - or you can sit quietly and do something that raises the cat's curiosity enough to come over and investigate. All the way into your lap.

Why is filmmaking equipment so expensive? Well, how many Panaflex cameras do you suppose are made each year? I know my neighbor isn't looking for a set of neutral density filters at the moment.

You can't do it all yourself but how the heck can you find twenty others to help?

If I see one more scene in a bar where two guys chatter about their mid-20s angst issues I'm gonna scream. I am.

The problem is much like this: When I used to fly my little airplane I flew in the same sky where the big airplanes flew. They had millions of dollars worth of equipment to help them, I had a couple thousand dollars worth. And yet, we both had to do essentially the same thing - take off, fly, and land - and do it in exactly the same place.

I'm struggling to get a really small film financed now. There are costs I simply can not eliminate. Even though I'm literally building most of my own equipment (I'm fortunate that I can do that). There are absolutes that for reasons of economic logic are never discounted - food, insurance, etc. So that leaves as the only flexible option the human actors and crew. My film will literally live or die based solely on my ability to help someone become equally passionate about it... and then take one step more.

I live in an area where there are always lots and lots of productions underway and hardly anyone is being paid. Several years ago I swore I would not ask anyone to work for nothing again. If someone volunteers, fine, but I won't ask for volunteers. That also means my film will need more money.

With respect to Dave's comment, I agree. But there is also a scale to consider. Let's say I cash in everything to make my film - clear evidence of either congenital insanity or near-biblical dedication. But I do it anyway. How can I create value for everyone else who participates in the making of my film? Is cash-for-a-hired-hand the only way? And if so, do those people really care anything about the "art" or are they just in it for the money? Do I really value their work less if I can not place a dollar value on it and fulfill that placement?

I have indeed met people who set limits. They own enough vehicles to fully fund my film and still have a car to drive. What's important to them? Not a film. It's having their fleet. Daughters are in ballet, gymnastics, tap dancing to the tune of $10K per year. Give that up? No. Annual vacation to the Caribbean? Can't give that up. Time share on the coast? Nope, need that too.

Like nearly all art, a film is a one-of-a-kind. That makes it uniquely rare... and filled with risk. One bad piece of aluminum extrusion and all you need to do is melt it down and try again. Ain't so with a film. It's hard enough to get people to invest in aluminum extrusions.

If I knew the real secret here I'd be sitting on a beach in a long white robe and every would-be filmmaker would cast thousand dollar bills at my feet for a head nod.

But, alas, I do not.

[David M. Edwards]

You make some very valid points, particularly when we try to assess the value of film as an art form. Unfortunately, the typical individual asking for low-rate deferred or free services is of the flavor you described, Chatty twenty somethings in a bar inspecting the universe. It is typically rife with unmotivated dialogue, which in the end goes nowhere.

I would be more than happy to work for my name in the credits and a shiney DVD, if I thought that the endvour was going to have any lasting value, If I could be proud and enthusiastic about the outcomes, but alas, that has rarely ever been the case. Unfortunately, even the projects (screenplays) that have a high degree of artistic merit are horribly underfunded, which in the end deminishes the value of the outcomes.

-DME

Hank Isaac said:

This may ramble a bit, so please forgive me.

I think it's all about passion vs. pennies. Of all the films in development you've heard about, for which of them would you be willing to mortgage your house or sell your children into slavery? My guess is... none.

[a digression] - I've run into a number of individuals over the years who want to be filmmakers, not make films.

Maybe it's like trying to get a cat to sit in your lap. You can chase it around - and they're very good at staying just out of fingertip's reach - or you can sit quietly and do something that raises the cat's curiosity enough to come over and investigate. All the way into your lap.

Why is filmmaking equipment so expensive? Well, how many Panaflex cameras do you suppose are made each year? I know my neighbor isn't looking for a set of neutral density filters at the moment.

You can't do it all yourself but how the heck can you find twenty others to help?

If I see one more scene in a bar where two guys chatter about their mid-20s angst issues I'm gonna scream. I am.

The problem is much like this: When I used to fly my little airplane I flew in the same sky where the big airplanes flew. They had millions of dollars worth of equipment to help them, I had a couple thousand dollars worth. And yet, we both had to do essentially the same thing - take off, fly, and land - and do it in exactly the same place.

I'm struggling to get a really small film financed now. There are costs I simply can not eliminate. Even though I'm literally building most of my own equipment (I'm fortunate that I can do that). There are absolutes that for reasons of economic logic are never discounted - food, insurance, etc. So that leaves as the only flexible option the human actors and crew. My film will literally live or die based solely on my ability to help someone become equally passionate about it... and then take one step more.

I live in an area where there are always lots and lots of productions underway and hardly anyone is being paid. Several years ago I swore I would not ask anyone to work for nothing again. If someone volunteers, fine, but I won't ask for volunteers. That also means my film will need more money.

With respect to Dave's comment, I agree. But there is also a scale to consider. Let's say I cash in everything to make my film - clear evidence of either congenital insanity or near-biblical dedication. But I do it anyway. How can I create value for everyone else who participates in the making of my film? Is cash-for-a-hired-hand the only way? And if so, do those people really care anything about the "art" or are they just in it for the money? Do I really value their work less if I can not place a dollar value on it and fulfill that placement?

I have indeed met people who set limits. They own enough vehicles to fully fund my film and still have a car to drive. What's important to them? Not a film. It's having their fleet. Daughters are in ballet, gymnastics, tap dancing to the tune of $10K per year. Give that up? No. Annual vacation to the Caribbean? Can't give that up. Time share on the coast? Nope, need that too.

If I knew the real secret here I'd be sitting on a beach in a long white robe and every would-be filmmaker would cast thousand dollar bills at my feet for a head nod.

But, alas, I do not.

[David M. Edwards]

Hi Dean,

I take the same attitude as you, in regard to shorts. To this day, I've not found anyone who has been able to produce a viable revenue stream for shorts. Perhaps there is something in the pipeline with internet delivery. Like you, I'm willing to work on those, as long as there is a positive outcome. Meaning, a well told story that has weight in its artistic conveyance.

As and aside, I would welcome the opportunity to read some of your shorts, and features as well.

In the end, I guess I'm just voicing frustration, not necessarily at filmmakers, but at the production market in general.

-DME

Dean P. Wells said:

Hi David,

Within the realm of screenwriting, personally, I set myself standards as there's always producers wanting the World for $10.

My shorts, which take me next to no time to write, go for credit and a copy of the finished product, but my features are a different ball game.

It's hard for any investor to make his/her money back on a short - hence the credit & copy.

Dean

[Rhoda Cronebach]

Ah ! Good to know ! Thanks for the info .

Luke Stewart said:

You don't have to print to 35mm film to show at Sundance, they accept digital formats. Not sure about Tribeca though.

[Den Stou]

I'm new here and just trying to get started out. I have a Movie of my own I want to make. I am a Cowboy, I am Broke, My daughter just starts collage in 2 weeks, I have no budget! I am working on a HOW TO video, I should be selling product placement for the products I really use and some other things, can't find where to start or contacts! Being the large market of DIY auto/motorcycle enthusiasts and other parties I fully expect well over 1 million views per useful free segment of my DVD I place on the Web. That advertising is worth money!

So In the mean time, I have no budget for my HOW TO DVD, I cannot pay a camera crew or editors, or decent actors, etc!!
It's either "Hey, will you work free" or " I'll pay you later when the DVD sells" or I do it all myself alone! I am going the all alone path right now :(
If some-one could point me to where to sell the product placement ads or sell them for me I would be all set and I could maybe pay something from that source of income.

Hey, will you sell my ads for me, deferred? I'll pay you 5% when I get the checks and the companies have approved the work/placements!
Will you film and edit deferred? I'll pay you 5% of net profit.
Will you act, deferred? We can work something out.
Of course if you help out with this DVD project of mine you get credits and a free copy and I will give you first shot at working your magic with my full length motion picture later, Deferred of course.
LOL

If any-one needs a gun toting trick riding maniac cowboy to shoot up anything/everything in sight let me know. I'll work cheap, deferred of course LOL

[Nicole Kruex - TRIWAR Pictures]

Well, the up side is if as a group of professionals you choose NOT to work on those projects, you will eliminate the dabblers through natural selection there by resetting the balance of quality productions and perhaps ridding the industry of the lesser standards of pseudo filmmakers and camcorder jockeys.

[David M. Edwards]

If only that were the case. It seems there are too many willing to answer a craigslist ad and work for $5.00/hr or the all too often deffered.

Best, DME

Nicole Kruex - TRIWAR Pictures said:

Well, the up side is if as a group of professionals you choose NOT to work on those projects, you will eliminate the dabblers through natural selection there by resetting the balance of quality productions and perhaps ridding the industry of the lesser standards of pseudo filmmakers and camcorder jockeys.